SF Invitational RLTCC Games

[See Flat]

Hi all,

I know that many of you that frequent this board participated in my last little event in may. What you might not know is I had started brewing the concept, format and execution a long time before I announced the event. I have started this brewing now, and am not sure when the event will take place.

This feeler is to see how the pros feel about entering such an event once more. I like the quality of the last event, and would want this one to be it's equal or better. So what do you say gentlemen? Interested?

1. I will be waiting for modeling to be done on Thruxton and Watkins Glen.

2. I would like one of the four tracks used in the last competition to be used. My choice is Brands... but will probably open a pole for this.

3. I have asked Tomte to see if he could ask Renesis take a look at the Mazda physics. I really like his tuning.
I think things are settling as for the Seat / 190 thing, although there was some grumbling in a race today about Epeli winning everything in the Seat. I think he's just a great driver, as Alphonse is a great driver. Bitching in question was that the cars recovers too well. Not the speed.

4. I need some feedback on the Kish Saturn. This car really feels to arcadish to me. Really too easy to handle in the hard places. Making it unfair to other drivers.

5. I want to change the format to 20 drivers. 2 groups of 10. I'll work out the physics of this later. I'll be asking for more commitement, i.e. not missing. I'll will still be using my calibrated coin toss for some entries.

6. I'm wrestling with the idea of teams.... as in.... perhaps assigning cars to drivers... but I know some people would really be turned off by that... just something I'm throwing out there.

7. I'll be running the event for four races, on consecutive week-ends. No breaks. Time Zones?
Would North Americans be opposed to having morning races? an in 1500 UTC, 10 AM in New York ( that is 4 pm in France right?). Last time I made the races later, which was really tough for me, and it was still a bit early for Euros with children to put to bed.

The rest of the rules will pretty much be the same.

Any feed back is welcome. You can post openly about generalities. If there are concerns you dont want to make public either PM me at ambrosia or here, or email me at SeeFlat@gmail.com I'm running this thing pretty much as last time. I listen... but I decide.

Thank you in advance for you feedback and goodwill.

See Flat

P.S. anyone know when the next winter RRL is going to take place?

[theSnail .@y]

Hey SF,

I liked this event and I have not changed my mind - I still like it !
Brands, Thruxton and Watkins are excellent choices imho ... I'm waiting for the 4th track but will not propose any
As for the cars, I will not say anything about it either. My choice (if I can choose) is volvo or seat anyway ... but I dont care, I'm ready to be assigned a car and a team.
I really love the team concept ... will we choose our team mates, will they be randomly chosen, or will you - ô mighty dictator - impose your will upon us ? This last option might be the easiest and fairest way to build teams.
Let's see what our friendly racers think about this

[leoantix]

needless to say im still excited from the races back in may ... hope we do this the sooner the better!

1. agreed, these tracks are a perfect add
2. how about lime rock park?
3. a mazda "tuning" would be appreciated
4. indeed, the saturn seems to be leaning towards the "alfa" zone, perhaps kish can loosen her up a bit
5. 10, i love it ... just making sure we have a host capable in both groups consistantly may be an issue
6. i liked the idea of individual performance, yet teams may be a nice twist ... hmmm
7. 4 weeks is great, just AM times for me are hella bad

got my brain thinking now ... i'd get back with some thoughts and ideas later

[djpimley]

1. I will be waiting for modeling to be done on Thruxton and Watkins Glen.

You'll be waiting a long time for Watkins Glen. Kenners doesn't know how to model. He wants to learn and I've offered to help but there's the matter of Brooklands.

4. I need some feedback on the Kish Saturn. This car really feels to arcadish to me. Really too easy to handle in the hard places. Making it unfair to other drivers.

Very much in disagreement here. The Saturn feels similar to the Vauxhall yet with heavier handling that makes it more stable but less nimble than Vauxhall. I don't see it as a ringer at all, just a nice neutral friendly option. I think it would be a real shame to disallow it (personally the Vauxhall is still my favourite to drive).

[amped™]

would also hope that as long as everything else is getting tuned, that dandy would tune the beemer just a bit

[slowDan]

Liking the sound of it already.

As far as modelling goes on Thruxton, I'm hoping that I'm mostly done with actual building, now its just tuning and prettiness. Once I've blocked the chicane a little better, I'd say its ready to race.

Groups of 10 sounds fun but as Leo mentioned logistics could get a little tricky, not impossible though.

Teams are an interesting idea, they would need to be announced or decided reasonably early to allow time to practice thouroughly in the right car obviously. How about something similar to the F1 races, where everyone PM's their favourite and second choice and allocate cars based on that? Unlucky choosers get a dice roll at the end!

The Seat doesn't seem unbeatable to me. But maybe I just got lucky. Its worth remembering that it might be the out and out winner on one track but not so much on others. The Saturn always seems to slip under the radar, I need to drive it more to come to a conclusion. The BMW does seem to be the one with the least advantages going for it. I'm not sure why that is but I reckon a little creative tweaking should get it a bit more level with the others.

That sort of time on a Sunday would be great for me. I guess there will be more debate to come here though!

RRL didn't seem to have as much interest last time. People seem to be having more individual events (long races, rallies etc.) instead of a whole championship. I think it would be better to let demand for the next one build up instead of proposing it and not having anyone turn up.

[alphonse]

Sounds like goooooood news.

I propose more races than last time, as i just like it enormously.
Brands - oh yes. Thruxton - yeah please. Watkins - good idea. Black forest - a must. Lime Rock, yes, yes. City.... and so on.
I just like it too much

Imho the cars are pretty well balanced. The seat just fits me, i wouldn't know if it fits all else, but i dont think so.
Groups of 10 sounds like enormous amounts of fun. Be it 1, 2 or three.

Teams... i would need to know more about that one. Cant really imagine any rulings for that.

As for the time... i am for sure able to join races after 20 UTC. Before its a question of managing wife and children.

I am really looking forward...

alphonse

[DonaemouS]

4. I need some feedback on the Kish Saturn. This car really feels to arcadish to me. Really too easy to handle in the hard places. Making it unfair to other drivers.

Yes, this car is a bit arcadish. Should be fun if will be fixed to meet the Redline's TCC standards.

I think we was hardly waiting for this new tourney, but the Watkins Glen is not ready to be added in a tourney. Is a empty track in alpha stage.

There are a tons of good track to play with, like the amazing SPA.

[See Flat]

needless to say im still excited from the races back in may ... hope we do this the sooner the better!

2. how about lime rock park?
3. a mazda "tuning" would be appreciated
4. indeed, the saturn seems to be leaning towards the "alfa" zone, perhaps kish can loosen her up a bit
5. 10, i love it ... just making sure we have a host capable in both groups consistantly may be an issue
6. i liked the idea of individual performance, yet teams may be a nice twist ... hmmm

You know last time I packaged the thing pretty well. Site with pictures of cars and tracks with little blurbs. It's all smoke and mirrors, but to me, the presentation and packaging was part of the pleasure. For onlookers, it looks as if it's something. Not just thrown together. So I want finished tracks. I asked Dandy if he might be working on finishing up Lime and his "not anytime soon" answer sounded more like << most probably never>>

I would love to have lime rock in the event... LOVE TO. but the tracks must be finished, or at least make us feel like we are on a track and not dreaming a race in a cardboard cutout. (I'm sure D will not take offense to this hehe) Track is awesome, looks not.
Point: imola has not been labelled release 1.0 but would certainly be "finished" enough for me.

Hosting: I'm sure I will belong, remain and die in a last group (wether 1 or 5) in any event so I will look into upping my bandwidth for a limited time with my provider. Thus host group 2.

You'll be waiting a long time for Watkins Glen. Kenners doesn't know how to model. He wants to learn and I've offered to help but there's the matter of Brooklands.

If my organizing reaches completion and Watkins is not done, I'll just pick another, that is not a problem. I'm just hoping that perhaps TMC will jump on it at one point and work a miracle. I just see this track filled with TCC cars and can imaging the fun it will be. But as my Lime Rock comments, I only want to use finished tracks.

Very much in disagreement here... it would be a real shame to disallow it (personally the Vauxhall is still my favourite to drive).

I certainly want more feedback but his seems to be a solo opinion. I agree it would be a shame to disallow, I love the variety of cars. I did few races with this car yesterday and it just seems blessed accident wise. If you are saying it's the weight.. maybe, but scraping a mountain on black forest where the volvo and vaux would just roll over and crash.. and to have the saturn just keep going seems unfair to me and will lead to sloppy driving having an advantage. (non of this in the top of group 1, it's group 2 I have to keep in mind, I dont know who will enter this thing and how much filtering will take place)

Liking the sound of it already.

As far as modelling goes on Thruxton, I'm hoping that I'm mostly done with actual building, now its just tuning and prettiness. Once I've blocked the chicane a little better, I'd say its ready to race.

As my imola comments, track is almost ready for primetime as far as I'm concerned. Just need some of those curb and respawn glitches de de-bugged and of course, the prettier the better

Teams are an interesting idea

Im not sure where I'm going with this.... I had spoken about this last time also and scrapped the idea as it seemed very difficult to implement. Much more brewing on this one... I threw it out to see if some of you big brained guys would throw in some concept that might catch my attention.

The Seat doesn't seem unbeatable to me... ...Saturn always seems to slip under the radar, I need to drive it more

Please do, I need more opinions.

That sort of time on a Sunday would be great for me. I guess there will be more debate to come here though!

Time is always the tough one. By the way, when I was quoting UTC, I am using EST time cause this will be in winter... which means -5 for us on New York time zone. last time I pushed my preferred time 2 hours and it really made it tough for me. I work week ends. I'll keep this one out there but will slice and dice at the end. With the sad conclusion of perhaps some exclusion.

RRL didn't seem to have as much interest last time...

That was a shame. I must admit, I personally was not crazy about my RRL experience, and that is why I created RLTCC. BUT, RRL is the reason I am still simming today and I think it's an important event that has to be promoted to all new people who start to play sim. I hope it doesn't fade.

Yes, this car is a bit arcadish. Should be fun if will be fixed to meet the Redline's TCC standards.

I think we was hardly waiting for this new tourney, but the Watkins Glen is not ready to be added in a tourney. Is a empty track in alpha stage.

There are a tons of good track to play with, like the amazing SPA.

Agreed, as noted in all my other replies.

Keep it coming folks.... I throw everything in the pot and simmer.......

See Flat

[DonaemouS]

RRL didn't seem to have as much interest last time. People seem to be having more individual events (long races, rallies etc.) instead of a whole championship. I think it would be better to let demand for the next one build up instead of proposing it and not having anyone turn up.

I think last RRL didnt have interest cause its rules. Lot of old skooler player dropped, from Pastrl, Leo, DANDY, me.

I think was popular the feeling of boring rules, car selections and so on. RRL is going to die with these rules. Or is already dead.

[DonaemouS]

ok, yes saturn is fast but has her flaws. On fast tracks, like silverstone, the car just fly, like the Mercedes 190. On slower tracks like brands, the car can achieve the same time of Volvo/SEAT.

Well. I think this car just need an higher frontal air resistance. Then, her higher speed or faster acceleration, can be reduced. On Black Forest, I was able to pass 5 cars at start.

[See Flat]

ok, yes saturn is fast but has her flaws. On fast tracks, like silverstone, the car just fly, like the Mercedes 190. On slower tracks like brands, the car can achieve the same time of Volvo/SEAT..... On Black Forest, I was able to pass 5 cars at start.

Thanks Don, My perspective is always measured by my lesser skill. I almost caught slow and pass him on Black in the Saturn. Using the volvo, I am usually 5 seconds slower per lap than him, and can easily roll the car if I hit the mountain. No such rolling accident possible in Saturn.

[djpimley]

Maybe if Kish simply raised the Saturn's centre of gravity? That would make it more unstable and also degrade the traction, perhaps just enough to slow it down a little. But if it was less stable, I don't think the speed would be a problem anyway. It doesn't feel as fast as the 190 so if it was just a little less bulletproof I think that would be enough compensation for the speed.

[leoantix]

will there be a new website with the next season

[See Flat]

will there be a new website with the next season

Im much too lazy to not make one.

[DonaemouS]

Using the volvo, I am usually 5 seconds slower per lap than him, and can easily roll the car if I hit the mountain. No such rolling accident possible in Saturn.

Perhaps, lot of people is thinking Volvo is the easiest car to drive. Well, definitely not. Or, at least, is the easiest if the player approach to Redline's TCCs cars, but is not quite easy if you need to push her skills to the limits.

Maybe if Kish simply raised the Saturn's centre of gravity? That would make it more unstable and also degrade the traction, perhaps just enough to slow it down a little.

In fact, this car needs behavior. Too easy to get out of errors, driving this car. Your idea is good. Rising CoG will add rolling to the body, leading in loosing speed while turning.

It doesn't feel as fast as the 190 so if it was just a little less bulletproof I think that would be enough compensation for the speed.

Yesterday, on Black Forest, Valentin K and me was playing with Mercedes and Saturn. We was quite at the end of the starting grid. Just pressing full throttle, Val and me passed all (ALL) cars was just in front of us (SEATs, Volvos, perhaps Alfas) in a couple of gears. I counted at least 5 cars. This mean, both need to be fixed.

[djpimley]

Yesterday, on Black Forest, Valentin K and me was playing with Mercedes and Saturn. We was quite at the end of the starting grid. Just pressing full throttle, Val and me passed all (ALL) cars was just in front of us (SEATs, Volvos, perhaps Alfas) in a couple of gears. I counted at least 5 cars. This mean, both need to be fixed.

Let me have a go with them. My opinion on the Saturn's speed was from my memory, not testing. However it's always amazing to me how many people don't know how to make a fast standing start. You and Val are two of the people who do know how.

EDIT: After some testing...

From a standing start all the cars hit 100 mph in about 9.5 seconds. Every car except the Saturn hits 60 mph in about 3 seconds. Due to nice traction and apparently higher engine inertia the Saturn hits 60 mph in under 3 seconds - about 2.6 seconds I think.

The Vectra is prone to wheel spin, the Mercedes always stalls on the line due to low engine inertia, the Volvo is lacking low-end torque to get it off the line, the Seat also spins its wheels easily. Seems to me the Saturn just has the perfect setup for a standing start sling shot. Let me punch in some CoG numbers and see what happens.

EDIT: raised CoG to 50 cm from 35 cm. Doesn't curtail the speed but it makes for a less stable more twitchy ride, looser tail and more tyre smoke. Perhaps more is needed. Try it out: Saturn CoG test

[Tomte]

Said before, I will say it again. The 190 is RWD, so it should ALWAYS have more traction at start compared to the FWD bunch.

All TCC FWD cars except the Saturn start with lot of wheel spin under full throttle, therefore they lose out. The 190 doesn't, because atm the revs drop to 3500, there's not enough power. The same is true for the Mazda, but this one is additionally hampered with too low torque.

Don, what do you want me to do? Drop the power by 100 hp? Make the wheels more slippery? Raise the clutch rpm? All of this will have serious drawbacks on the drivability.

So I will not change this. The 190 will always be a good starter, period. What I will do it raise the frontalAirResistance and lower the gearing of the top 3 gears. And drop wheels.friction a bit. This should insure that the 190 has a slower top speed and it will again become more tricky to drive in corners.

[Tomte]

[... the Mercedes always stalls on the line due to low engine inertia...

Ah, ok. You're right. I will look into that.

[DonaemouS]

Don, what do you want me to do? Drop the power by 100 hp? Make the wheels more slippery? Raise the clutch rpm? All of this will have serious drawbacks on the drivability.

So I will not change this. The 190 will always be a good starter, period. What I will do it raise the frontalAirResistance and lower the gearing of the top 3 gears. And drop wheels.friction a bit. This should insure that the 190 has a slower top speed and it will again become more tricky to drive in corners.

No, no. It's not a problem the 190 is a good starter. She MUST be a good starter, having rwd.

I compared the Saturn to 190 just to give an idea how fast is the Saturn at start.

What you need to do? I'm the last one who can help you. But, around, there are lot of good tweakers that may help you.

[Tomte]

Well, the Seat and the 190 will be updated shortly, probably tomorrow or Tuesday.

[NoNameBrand]

Every car except the Saturn hits 60 mph in about 3 seconds. Due to nice traction and apparently higher engine inertia the Saturn hits 60 mph in under 3 seconds - about 2.6 seconds I think.

Uh, I just used a stop watch and a lovely assistant, and the 190 hits 60mph in 4.6s (perhaps if I changed gears better it would be lower, but I can't see it being 3s). The others felt similar, though I had to let my assistant go about her business and didn't time them.

[djpimley]

Uh, I just used a stop watch and a lovely assistant

Oops, I should mention that I timed the cars by repeatedly starting a 1 car race with each until I felt I had nailed the start. The in-game counter does not begin counting until I cross the start line so that explains the stray second. It will be the same for all my timings, so the comparison is still valid.

[See Flat]

Yet another comment on these cars... from a low end driver. I'm pretty sure i've said most of these things.. but since the discussion is still going, I'll place these comments here as to group the information together.

Merc 190
Don has repeatedly said the 190 is too fast. It's possible that he can judge that when comparing his driving to his using the Volvo, his car of choice. But, I still say, Val is the only guy that wins in this car. It's damn hard to drive.
I can beat Tomte with the volvo when he uses HIS 190. So I think, yes, it's a better car, but not many people can drive with it.
Seat Leon
I've tried using this car, and on some tracks seemed to think I was doing better, but on the average, was not getting overall better times in MP races. I was placing better with Volvo. I do feel that good players picking this car have a slight advantage, it's fast and seems quite stable. Why more people are not using it is puzzling to me.
Saturn
This one I really feel is too darn easy. It just recovers from anything, and does not require any thought when going into a curve.. just go. AND, if you climb a curb, hit a wall, go into slippery grass... no problem, just pull yourself back on the track. I really think this car needs looking into. Leo mentioned last night it might be a good thing to have an easier car in the game for the... less skilled... to still remain in the pack and have fun. I agree totally with this position, but do not think it's fair to have such a car in the RLTCC games. It skews the results.
BMW
I see amped made a short request. I think Dandy loves the challenge and loves working hard at driving and he builds his cars with that in mind. In actuality, I would venture it's gotta be that hard on a real track with a real car going at these speeds. I'm sure when he gets a win, it's more rewarding than a noob taking it with the Alfa. So sorry amped, I think it's fine not to change it. Just more merit for Dandy Toad and you if you dare once more!
Mazda
I dont know what is wrong with this car. I see a lot of good drivers winning with it. I personnaly cant drive the thing. I know Tomte has very specific thoughts about it, that the car was crippled to get the ringer out of it. I hope whatever Ren or tomte does to it does not make it such again. It sure seems faulty at the starting line!
I hope they get a paint job more than anything
Volvo
it might just be because it's like an old pair of slippers... but I always do better (consistency wise) with this car than any other I try.
Vaux
The one that made all this happen.... what can be said.

See Flat
RLTCC Games

[DANDY]

...cardboard cutout. (I'm sure D will not take offense to this hehe)
See Flat

...not at all, you're just pointing out the obvious. I only take exception when some punk on an internet power trip goes out of his way to slag my beginners' attempts over and over on multiple threads.

I asked Dandy if he might be working on finishing up Lime and his "not anytime soon" answer sounded more like << most probably never>>

Never fear, it will get a 1.0 treatment, most likely over the winter, as I'll have 3 months off.

would also hope that as long as everything else is getting tuned, that dandy would tune the beemer just a bit

I've picked up a few nuggets in the past few weeks that pretty much oblige me to revisit my previous creations.

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