Seat Leon RLTCC, version 1.1, updated 2008-08-29

[Tomte]

Updated to version 1.1
Thanks to every tester and of course, to our lords and masters, Leo and GA.


Ok, this appears to be a quiet place to get some feedback before hitting the world with another pointless update.

It's about that Seat of Andreu and me. The original .car was just hacked together in a late night effort to get something out of the door. It was supposed to be further developed before the public release, but the TCC tournament deadline was too close. So some of the allowed limits were not used, esp. the downforce settings.

I prepared a beta version of the upcoming 1.1 release, and I would like to have your opinion if it improved at all, or if it's not worth the hassle.

I revisited the downforce settings, some changes to the suspension were also made. The car should keep it hot hatch character.

You can find the beta of version 1.1 here http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/tomte/SeatLeon/Seat_Leon_Cupra_RLTCC_1.1_redplug.zip

[theSnail .@y]

I liked the previous version but I found it a bit slow.
I tested the new one on lime rock and beat the world record (of the older) in less than 10 laps (0:56:40).
Then I tried the old one and beat the world record again on lime rock (0:56:00) - it took me less than 10 laps again ...
I came back to the new one and beat my previous record 0:55:88 in less than 5 laps.
I'm not a Time Trial addict, so I ended the test here.

I like that new Seat. I found it lower, faster, more stable, turns better but ... do not drive on the borders you'll touch it with the bottom of the car and lose precious time !

[leoantix]

coolio ... will have to give the hatch a whirl around as soon as this hang over dies down a bit ... tg for days off and ac

to mention i always found the seat in earlier versions fun yet always felt it was "restricted" from its full potential. hope this update lets the beast roam around a bit more

[DonaemouS]

ummh, is her faster or slower? If she is faster, then tomte, you creating a possible bug.

Some days ago, I was playing on Monaco with Alphonse. He was using the SEAT, I was playing with Volvo. Was pratically impossible to get Alphonse far from my back, He gained lap after lap a bunch of cents at every lap.

This mean both cars are good balanced, but now, what will happens?

[leoantix]

finally got the chance to bring her around pembrey for a few ...





seems i did better as in consistency with the new beta. she seems more fun now and very well balanced. ironically, i did get the fastest lap with the original. perhaps it being my 8th lap (last lap of testing) played a role.

[alphonse]

ummh, is her faster or slower? If she is faster, then tomte, you creating a possible bug.

Some days ago, I was playing on Monaco with Alphonse. He was using the SEAT, I was playing with Volvo. Was pratically impossible to get Alphonse far from my back, He gained lap after lap a bunch of cents at every lap.

You forget that SEAT and Monaco
a ) is my favorite combo currently and
b) are made for each other.
On tracks like Mount Panorama the SEAT is lost, far behind the Mazda and behind the Volvo. Curves are just liked by this great car.

For RLTCC the Seat came out just after my qualifying, and i just did not want to do the qualifying again...
But since then, the Seat is my preferred TCC car. This is because of three facts:
1) The sound of the seat just suits my ears. Redline is not really... strong in sounds. But the seat has muscles in the ear.
2) That car looks good AND handles nice
3) My elder son is named leon. so i just have to like that car.

And now for the results:
i had a test in monaco, 5 laps with the current SEAT with best-time of 1.41'22 and two 1.42'xx .
And five laps with the beta with best-time of 1.40'17 and 3(!) more in the 1:40ies.
The back of the car is behaving nicer now in sharp turns. that makes it faster, imho - at least where turns matter.
I think i had a regular drive on both cars and was not simply improving over time.
Great work so on the update.

Summary:
The car is smoother. More controllable and therefore less accidents will happen probably. And i like that.
If its too fast is not proven to me, as i had several races on tracks (black forest, imola, ...) where i just could not catch up with the TCC's as much as i wanted.

Much test to read, eh...

anyway...

thanks very much for my favorite TCC car to Tomte and Andreu...

and - as always... have fun,

alphonse

[DonaemouS]

i had a test in monaco, 5 laps with the current SEAT with best-time of 1.41'22 and two 1.42'xx .
And five laps with the beta with best-time of 1.40'17 and 3(!) more in the 1:40ies.

ok then, we have good numbers to look at. I had a quick comparison with my fastest TT Volvo S60 STCC record and I saw was 1:44.50 with Joe Chip in 1:43.78. This mean I didn't have a quicker lap and car can probably run in 1:41/1:42.

This give an advantage to SEAT, and is good, cause every car has favorite tracks.

[Tomte]

Thanks for the promising feedback so far. Looks like I can release it before I go on vacation.

I haven't heard from Andreu in a while, I'm not even sure he is aware of the update. Well, he will be.

[Tomte]

Version 1.1 is now released. Please see first post.

[alphonse]

Wow. Its a rocket. Tested it a monaco, pembrey and black forest in HoF and i will not so easily be beaten by mazdas and volvos...

GREEEEEEEAT work,
alphonse

[leoantix]

yay! more fun this weekend ... ill update legacy shortly with her

ps. i edited your post tomte and fixed that silly link and ENJOY! your vacation

[leoantix]

Wow. Its a rocket ...

agreed ... yesterday got to spend some time in MP with her and indeed she is a warrior especially on slow and tight tracks. only thing imho, is she seems to have way too much of an advantage off the line. seems she beats every other car in the class by a huge difference

[alphonse]

Wow. Its a rocket ...

agreed ... yesterday got to spend some time in MP with her and indeed she is a warrior especially on slow and tight tracks. only thing imho, is she seems to have way too much of an advantage off the line. seems she beats every other car in the class by a huge difference

from the ambrosiasw-forum

Naaah, you guys always say that.

But - to be honest - you might be partly right...
Let us see in lime rock on the 3rd how it turns out...

alphonse

[DonaemouS]

But - to be honest - you might be partly right...
Let us see in lime rock on the 3rd how it turns out...

naaah, Are u really think to get my Volvo kicked in the ass? Here, the only car with advantage is the Mercedes 190 TCC, she is faster then other on every tracks. Hope Tomte will fix it.

[Tomte]

But - to be honest - you might be partly right...
Let us see in lime rock on the 3rd how it turns out...

Here, the only car with advantage is the Mercedes 190 TCC, she is faster then other on every tracks. Hope Tomte will fix it.

Are you guys falling me in the back? I gave you a full day to find these issues and you said the beta was all right...
Anyway, no changes anytime soon. I just can't edit a plug on my phone.

I still wonder how the weakest car can be the quickest. Btw, I doubt that the Seat accelerates quicker than the 190. But I did make sure that the gears actually work.

[Tomte]

It appears that the Seat needs some more tweaking.
After a year of regular use, can you guys give me some pointers as to where this car is actually too quick? This is not to say that I doubt you, it's just difficult for me to find out as I only know 2 of the TCC cars well enough. Recovery rate? Top Speed? Acceleration? Cornering? Let me know.

[DonaemouS]

I don't feel the SEAT is a rocket in acceleration, but maybe has a great "stability program". Also, if i remember, she also has a fairly good top speed. Now we need to understand if her engine is able to do that. Surely she is helped by aerodynamics, but who know?

[Tomte]

I don't feel the SEAT is a rocket in acceleration, but maybe has a great "stability program". Also, if i remember, she also has a fairly good top speed. Now we need to understand if her engine is able to do that. Surely she is helped by aerodynamics, but who know?

The Seat has one of the worst aerodynamics of all TCC cars. It's just that the gearng works with the power delivery.
Racing with you guys today it was much easier for me to keep up with you guys in the Seat. The 190 was just bitching around I felt that I could attack corners much more agressive compared to the 190, which doesn't like that driving style at all.
The test version I'm running at the moment is heavier (2009 spec), revs lower, has an even higher FAR, higher inertia settings. What can I tell you. It appears to be faster than the 1.3 release
So I will continue with shorter suspension travel in order to dial out some of the stabilty program.

[Toad]

The Seat has one of the worst aerodynamics of all TCC cars. It's just that the gearng works with the power delivery.
Racing with you guys today it was much easier for me to keep up with you guys in the Seat. The 190 was just bitching around I felt that I could attack corners much more agressive compared to the 190, which doesn't like that driving style at all.
The test version I'm running at the moment is heavier (2009 spec), revs lower, has an even higher FAR, higher inertia settings. What can I tell you. It appears to be faster than the 1.3 release
So I will continue with shorter suspension travel in order to dial out some of the stabilty program.

What I have noticed in many races against the Seat's is that with a good driver they tend to fire out of turns with the gas on earlier than the other cars. Thus they get up to speed quicker as a result. That's why I find it so hard to pass them, usually the best I can manage is to pull even. Though when one is behind you, you feel like you have nothing for them.

I remember when Dandy was developing the first version of the Bmw TCC, that the heavier six speed held the road better than the lighter 5 speed model. So I'm kind of not surprised to hear that your test mule is even faster now with more weight.

Have you tried moving the weight more forward, making the rear lighter and thus looser? That's the effect driving D's five speeder had. It made the car very difficult and dangerous to get smooth entries into turns. That car was (for me) a slow in, fast out car, which as you all know suits me. The Seat seems like a fast in and fast out car.

[Tomte]

Have you tried moving the weight more forward, making the rear lighter and thus looser?

Now that is the kind of comment I was hoping for. Thanks a lot.

With the Vauxhall and the Volvo, I did not like the heavy understeer under power out of a corner. So the Leon's capability in this respect was a deliberate development. Looks like I overdid it a tad. The Saturn is even better out of corners, the understeer is well controlled in that car (no complaints here).

Looking at the car file today I noticed that I gave it a 53/47 front to back weight distribution. I wonder how I got that idea in the first place, so I guess a move towards the front might be in order.
It seems that the road going Cupra has a 63/37 split. Maybe I need to settle for 65/35, as most weight is normally removed from the back of the car. Alphonse won't be happy

[alphonse]

Alphonse won't be happy

I dont need to be happy - all we try to achieve is a fair game in a TCC tournament with cars that have their own characteristics but about the same overall time on all selected tracks.

no worries about me man...

i am short on time these days - but will fulfill my duties soon and then will be ready hopefully...

looking forward,

alf

[Tomte]

Seat are very explicit and state on their website that the BTCC car has 58% Front - 42% Rear weight distribution.

Now I found that on the Redline Wikispaces page about TCC cars... Seems to be awfully balanced for an FWD car. I don't actually think they changed the position of the engine towards behind the front axle to achive that balance. Or Seat was able to make the car light enough to put an enourmous balast in the rear of the car. But then again, having weight just in front and the rear means higher inertia around the Y axis, so all your balancing goes out of the window.

[Tomte]

Ok guys, here's a beta for you. It relies on the v1.3 Seat redplug.

Changes:
[list][*]CoG moved some 19cm forward, weight distribution now 60/40
[*]Inertia raised
[*]FAR raised to 0.99 (from 0.91)
[*]lowered Redline to 8500 (from 8550)
[*]adjusted suspension to deal with the repositioned CoG
[*]shorter wheel travel

I hope that the car is less stable over bumps, that one has to drive it a bit more carefully.
Let me know if I'm wrong or heading into the right direction. Please let me also know if I killed the character of the Seat.

Seat Leon v1.4 beta (.car only)

[Tomte]

ASW is down again, but I'm sure Leo will pick up the redplug and put it on Legacy.

After a lot of beta testing, here is Version 1.4:
List of changes:
- a lot
- and a bit more
TCC Seat Leon Cupra 1.4

I hope I didn't build in any mistakes, let me know if something is off.

Enjoy

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