Re: GT4 - Redline Specifications

[theSnail .@y]

It seems that Legacyoflies does not have the latest version of the 350z.
The right one is labeled v0.3 …

It's been here since oct. 25

So, the 350z in your 1st post is the bugged one …

[leoantix]

not anymore ... fixed

[Tomte]

Hi guys,
I prepared a second test pack, all of the cars I'm managing at the moment got an update:
M Coupe: more power
Z4: less air resistance, slightly softer suspension
XLR: second pseudo skin
968: more power, more air resistance, lower weight.

The performance figures should now be closer, but not identical to the benchmark 350z.
GT4 Test Pack 2

[theSnail .@y]

Some numbers again ?

Quarter Mile Test / Runway Mile Test
M Coupe .. 12'26 / 30'20
Z4 .......... 12'28 / 30'09
XLR ........ 12'38 / 30'05
350z ....... 12'42 / 30'04
968 ......... 12'26 / 30'13

Top speeds are very close in 1/4 mile test (ranging from 183 to 184).
In mile test we range from 244 to 252 (Z4 = 248, M coupe = 247, 968 = 248, 350z = 253, XLR = 252).

The differences are smaller now, it will be interesting to see how handling interfers during races.

[Tomte]

oops, please let me know if the 968 is too good now.

If you don't shift to 6th in the Z4, you easily get a time below 30'15 and a top speed of 249.

[theSnail .@y]

Yes indeed, I must have messed up somewhere … but I'm sure I've not gone to 6th gear
Z4 numbers fixed in previous post.

I dont think the 968 is too good now, but the M coupe would need some more top speed a different gearbox
I'll try to host some GT4 races in 1 or 2 hours … to see how these compete.

[alphonse]

Thanks for testpack 2.

tested it today in some mp-races - not too many showing - but ggs.
we came closer to some sort of equalizing in overall performance, this for sure.
The M3 is much easier to handle for me now, which came unexpected but is really nice.
Z4 for me is about the same.
The Porsche is (still) exactly what i expected - reminds me much of the GT3 in the handling, nice that it has become faster.

When driving the nissan, i feel (and see numbers) like its still faster overall - combined with the easy handling and very graceful recovery imho still the car to beat...

more to come most probably...
alf

[Toad]

Was not able to participate in the MP testing today, but did do some tt at Pembrey and Limerock with the updates, and found all of them to be improvements.

Was able to to beat my Nissan times at both tracks with the Z4 now; so your "minor" changes did the trick for me. Need more seat time in MP in all, but looks like you are moving in the right direction.

[theSnail .@y]

Yesterday in MP, I drove the XLR most of the time and it seems I had a more understeery car which led me to drive more slowly in turns and lose much time. Or maybe I still have not found the way to do it We'd need Don or any other good-used-to-the-XLR-driver to make sure.
The 968 is a nice ride, predictable and pretty fast. I did not drive the bmws.

All in all, the cars were much closer and the outcomes quite different from race to race. Many errors though as we're learning …

[Toad]

There is a small group doing some TT testing a LRP with everyone driving all the GT4's. For myself I find that they are pretty close in performance around that 1 minute per lap track with the exception of the Nissan. For my money it is a little to far ahead of the field.

I am a good 1/2 to 1 second faster with less stress with that car than the others. I don't even prefer it, but in a tournament I would likely drive it over any of the others if things stay as is with the cars.

[Tomte]

I had a look at the LOL FTP into Andreu's directory, there are a couple of files we could use to create an UV map adapted for our needs.
Unfortunately, the 3D model is in Blender format.... and I don't do Blender.... Anyone... Anyone...

[alphonse]

Please help us find equal cars in testing them. i am posting my findings below.

thanks,

alf

_______________________________________________________

I finished some tests on the gt4 cars.
i did timetrials in arena and bardagi. tried each car 2-8 laps until i felt i got a clean fast lap.



looks like we have 3 different handling-groups:
The BMW's: they can drift, dont like curbs too much, precise steering is crucial, dont ever try a curve too fast or you pay that with some seconds delay as you probably loose the car. but if you get a good lap - they both are fast.
The Porsche: Old house - behaves just the way i learned sim in redline, not too much drift, not too much grip, middle-class on curbs, pretty good but not the fastest.
Nissan and Cadillac: Both cars behave just nicely - they eat up curbs, hard to loose them, easy to handle. But the Cadillac is the slowest car and the Nissan the fastest.


Now the results in detail:

BMW M Coupe: 2nd fastest car in Arena, 3rd fastest in Bardagi
But its a bitch - easy to loose; she needs a good hand on her all the time. Being too fast at curve entry pays a lot. once you get it with drifting its pretty easy and you gain some seconds.

BMW Z4M: a tenth of a sec slower in arena, but a tenth of a sec faster in bardagi.
for me the car that can be the fastest of the pack - but its also hard to keep it on track. one small mistake and you pay seconds for it. pretty much the same like the M Coupe - but drifting is much harder - strange behaviour. Most potential if driven cleanly in this car.

Cadillax XLR: second to last in arena and slowest in Bardagi
Great handling - i like its handling most of all. easy controllable and not that bitchy if you try too much. if we did 50-lap-races i might catch this car - as errors must not happen with it (compared to the two BMW's). It likes the curbs and curving can be fun despite its weight.
But - after all - too slow i fear.

Nissan: first places in arena and bardagi (1.3 sec in arena, 0.6 in Bardagi).
Surely the fastest of the pack. But not only fast - also very forgiving (you can drive on the dirt and are still faster than many others). hard to loose it as you can brake late, very tolerant and just faster than the rest of the pack


Porsche: last in arena, much better in bardagi: 3rd best time
I learned Redline with the Porsches and that handling - i like it somehow. I can loose the car (upon braking for example), but its pretty familiar from the handling of eg the gt3 porsche. it feels faster than it really is.
Some more speed might be appropriate - not sure though when i follow pastrl in this car.


My recommendations:
The BMW are fast but to be fast you have some risk riding with you. Which compares for me well with the Porsche and the Cadillac (less risk, less fast).
The nissan is out of class for me - too nice handling and too fast.
The Equilibrium is hard to find - as you like it more risky with the bmw's but are faster if you get through with it; the porsche and cadi are somewhat slower but easier driving in my opinion.
maybe bring the porsche and cadi some faster (but not too much), whereas the nissan could use some less power or less controllability.

[theSnail .@y]

Nice Alphonse !
As I told you, I've made some tests too when the cars were last updated. My conclusions are similar but for the Cadillac which has always been the 2nd fastest to me.

I made it differently though :

One set of tests on a real race track (Lime Rock - 5 laps which have several turns, 2 fast parts, a bump and is less than 1 min / lap) :

Best laps
350z's best lap is only 4/100th faster than M Coupe
968 was 6/10th slower and XLR 1'1 sec
Z4 was the slowest, 1'4 sec more than 350z

Top speed
350z was faster than XLR by 2 km/h
968 was slower by 3 km/h and Z4 by 5 km/h
BMW M coupe was slowest by 7 km/h

Average speed
350z was better with 1 km/h more than M coupe and XLR
2 km/h Z4 and 968

Then I tried to compare on pure straight - this is no racing environment but teaches things about acceleration and potential top speed (Quarter Mile Test, Runway Mile Test and Bonneville Salt Flats) - conclusion :
Quarter Mile (short) : best is M Coupe, followed by (Z4 = XLR), 350z and 968 is last ;
Mile : best is 350z closely followed by XLR (1/100th), M Coupe, Z4 and 968 is last ;
Bonneville (looong) : best is 350z, followed by XLR, M Coupe, 968 and Z4.


What I learn from that :
- 350z is too fast and easy to handle - I'm working on that
- XLR is pretty fast, has good acceleration, comfortable (not a bitch) but not that fast in racing conditions (or I did not find the good line for it) ;
- M Coupe is nervous, hard to handle, average top speed ;
- Z4 accelerates quickly but has a low top speed and is not that easy to handle (at least for me) ;
- 968 does nos accelerate quickly, is not really fast in straigths but is quite predictable, which make it a good choice while racing.

My opinion :

I think to make the Caddy faster, you'll have to make it faster in turns since it's pretty good already in straights (or learn to drive like Don ). But then it would become fast (and quite easy) everywhere …

I agree with Alphonse about the BMWs and Porsche but would like a tad more top speed for the Z4 (and a bit more for the 968 of course).

I've already changed the tires of the 350z (stock/narrower ones instead of racing ones) which make it a bit harder to handle. I'll try lowering the power and/or adding some FAR. I'm not sure about adding weight (isn't it fixed ?) ; Edit : Hehehe, I just looked at the weights of the GT4s and they're quite different. I'll might add some weight then …

[Tomte]

Great stuff.
Just a general question: why did you two choose LRP and Bardagi? I find that these are very peculiar tracks.
True, LRP first corners show understeer, the bump shows if the suspension is composed.
Of course, you already put quite a lot of time into the tests, so that is by no means a criticism. If I may, I find Watkins Glen and Imola very good tracks for testing, as they have several sections which really show a cars behaviour in difficult situations.

On the first page of this topic, I proposed a power to weight ratio of 3.2 - 3.6 kg/hp + 100 kg (fuel and driver). So you have some margin to play with.
But playing with the weight also means adjusting the suspension, therefore I'm not proposing it as a means of balancing the cars once you have found a working setup.

I guess wheel dimensions, FAR, power and gear ratios might be the way to go (even if power and gear cam change the handlin as well).

[alphonse]

Great stuff.
Just a general question: why did you two choose LRP and Bardagi? I find that these are very peculiar tracks.
...
If I may, I find Watkins Glen and Imola very good tracks for testing, as they have several sections which really show a cars behaviour in difficult situations.

I have chosen Arena as i just like the track and wanted to learn to drive the gt4's on a track i like. Bardagi was meant to be different - some elevations, tricky curves. I thought it were a good mix to have tests done.

I ll add Imola results as soon as i have done them. Thanks for the Input...

alf

[theSnail .@y]

I have changed the 350z : it's a bit harder to handle due to its narrower tires and slower due to its higher FAR (+7%). If it's still not enough, I'll cut some horses off Well, it was not enough … cut 5% of all the horses and now here are my results :

350z : on Imola, I think that I was rather consistent with it (4x 2:00) because I'm used to drive that combo, more than with the other cars or on Watkins …
M coupe : maybe I should try that one on Imola again.
968 : It's a pity I lost it upon hard braking in lap 3, it could have been better than the 350z. I'm not sure this car needs to be faster in any way

	M coupe	Z4 M	XLR	350z	968
Imola
Best Lap	2:00'98	2:00'40	2:00'89	2:00'09	1:59'13
Best 4/5 laps	8:15'47	8:06'16	8:06'56	8:00'28	8:04'54
Top speed	211	210	209	211	212
Watkins Glen
Best Lap	2:05'74	2:04'41	2:05'00	2:05'29	2:04'92
Best 4/5 laps	8:28'11	8:27'08	8:28'91	8:28'16	8:24'56
Top speed	233	235	236	235	236

@Tomte - I chose Lime Rock to compare because it's short and has different features. It's convenient to do several laps with several cars, like Bardagi … But to test the 350z I often go to Imola, VIR, Thruxton

Here is the new 350z .car file. Edit : see there to get the latest release.

[alphonse]

Dear Snail,

Tested that Nissan and it seems we come really close already - thanks a lot.

I tried to test the cars in Imola - but gave up. The first curve after start can bring you a lot of time as well as the chicane - and i found out that its hard to go consistently fast with all cars on those crucial situations. i ll try again tonite and post times if i find time.

I tested the cars in Watkins yesterday - they are really really close now (got the new nissan yesterday evening, 21 UTC).

I start to be able to handle the BMW M Coupe nice (danger to loose it is still present), the Z4M still is tricky but hast potential, the Cadi is slowest, Nissan is with the group and the Porsche is imho not slower (messed up an absolute fastest time with it).

Here the numbers (made a race of 4 laps with each car):

	M coupe	Z4 M	XLR	350z	968
Watkins Glen
Diff to best time	0.26	0.04	0.75	0.00	0.22
2nd best lap: diff to best lap (above)	0.05	0.58	0.20	0.64	0.32
Top speed	233	236	238	234	236

So - the caddy seems the only one i am slower at any time - it might be me.

Otherwise the cars seem pretty close.

All acknowledge and confirm this?

alf

[theSnail .@y]

Damn, I'm so slow !
A real snail ;-)

[Tomte]

All acknowledge and confirm this?

I can only confirm that your are a much better driver than I am. I didn't get below 2:06 with the M Coupe....

[DonaemouS]

i see a good interest in GT4. Well here my update (personal one).

I'm returning in Redline ultimately, doing a tons of TT, just to "resume" the old skills I hided under the hat. The GT4 class is a good idea, cause it features the skilled tomte's hands in tweaking all the things. Now, what I need to do. Well, still concentrate in real life things, especially in this extremely sophisticated economy moment. Moving on the track, to beat all of you, no one excluded. Trying at the same time, to restart the 3D and texture development.

Is not easy, but I love this community and the people who made it so great and involving. So, maybe, someone of you thought the GT4 class without me, would be a bit easier... Naah, stop to dream and wake up in the real life, Don is here, and want one of the highest three places...

[Tomte]

That's the spirit! I missed that a lot, Don.

Now haul your ass to your Mac Pro and give us a proper UV-map to work with. And let me know in which car you want to win, so that I can tweak it accordingly.

[alphonse]

I never doubted Don would show up if there is something to win

nice!

alf

[theSnail .@y]

Oh no, I can't believe it. Coming back is not possible for an old driver, he's too rusty !

[alphonse]

I did some more tests on all cars on imola.
will try something tonite (i might found out how to handle the caddy) - will post my results and bring a final conclusion from my side by tomorrow high noon (my time).

alf

[alphonse]

I cant beat my times anymore - lost my mojo...

anyway here the summary of all results:
(Time difference measured from the best time in seconds)
BARDAGI
Nissan 0.00 -> BMW Z4 +0.08 -> Porsche + 0.17 -> BMW M Coupe + 0.17 -> Cadillac + 0.45
IMOLA
BMW M Coupe 0.00 -> Nissan +0.06 -> BMW Z4 + 0.12 -> Porsche + 0.18 -> Cadillac + 0.43
SILVERSTONE ARENA
Nissan 0.00 -> BMW M Coupe +0.52 -> BMW Z4 + 0.63 -> Cadillac + 1.27 -> Porsche + 1.32
WATKINS GLEN
Nissan 0.00 -> BMW Z4 + 0.04 -> Porsche + 0.22 -> BMW M Coupe + 0.26 -> Cadillac + 0.75

Conclusion:
Nissan seems fast still - but close to the others.
Cadi is slower for me everywhere
Times can be better for some tenths in any lap i do, therefore differences that must be reflected again are:
SILVERSONE ARENA, where the Nissan was terribly fast for one lap
The Cadillac in general - as its slower.

Recommendation for now:
Cadi should become faster if i should drive it (others might get it very fast, i dont know)
Nissan still is fast - but within the groups.

Do you Tomte think you could put some magic into the Cadillac?
If yes - i could test the times for sure again - right now i am done with gt4 testing... a bit exhausted!


To be sure we should check that with other drivers (thanks snail) - anyone else around (or snail again)?


alf

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