FartMallow 3000

[DANDY]

Perma-Link to the WIP

Sneak peak for those who can read.

Filed under Zed06.R for my own easy selection and comparison.
Modelling and Texturing still under way.

Most recent physics tweaks untested, as I'm editing from work over VNC.

Looking for handling feedback vs Z06R on Silverstone, hoping for times within 1-2 seconds (likely slower). If it does that well at Silver, it should fare better on most other tracks.
Also seeking suggestions for building in personality. I'm not a fan of big load sensitivity numbers, but have bumped them up as much as I'm willing to towards the Z's stats.
My last drive had it understeering appreciably, possibly due to overly stiff shock/spring settings.
Also need suggestions for Engine inertia settings, keeping in mind the driveline should be stiff and unforgiving with straight-cut gears.

From watching a spec race at Montreal, I know the rear end will break out and swing around under over-zealous braking from high speed. My last tweaks had this down, the car would wobble controllably when standing on the brakes into Club, only spinning if I was way too hot.
It was also evident that serious effort and revving were required to get these going from a standstill.


Known Issues:
Collision Box and lights are still set to Z06R spec.

Have at 'er!

[leoantix]

/me drools on the screen again ... will test her as soon as i can feel my feet



btw ... dunno why but it shows up as the z06.r with no "zed" here

[DANDY]

"zed"

...suggested pronunciation

[Toad]

Something wrong here besides the name; the car does not load in race and is causing a massive slow down on the MBP almost to the point of a freeze. Maybe it's just my machine, but if not you will notice

[alphonse]

hmm. nothing wrong here toad. MBP on black forest at 75 fps close to all the way.

i like the car. its quite forgiving, that comforts me
Had some fast laps at black forest and imola and started to feel at home...

great work, go on...

alphonse

[leoantix]

agreed alf ... nothing wrong here toad, smooth loading and display

dandy i have yet to spend the time on silverstone, yet i did get some laps out on pembrey quickly just before. i love the feel of her at highs peed, feels like a solid and stable rocket. at lower speeds, it seems to be very choppy on its steering. sometimes is feels like it won't turn and other times it wants to eat the turn alive. might be me, late start and sandy eyes, yet it just doesn't feel as fluid and smooth as i would expect her to. i'll have more time this weekend to rip her up at silverstone and get some more testing in.

[Toad]

[quote="leoantix"]agreed alf ... nothing wrong here toad, smooth loading and display

I wish I could create income the way I seem to be able to create unique issues with computers.

Reinstalled and restarted, works now. Will try a test later today.

First impression though: gear box seems familiar to me

[See Flat]

will try this asap but just had to mention how much I love this tittle. Good on you D!

SF

[amped™]

oh fun fun stuff....

[DANDY]

Handling has improved since posted by loosening engine inertia and rear diff settings. Link won't be updated till it has its own engine sound.

Being in relatively early WIP status, it may cause some issues as mentioned above. It has way too many polys and textures are Photoshop files.

[DonaemouS]

in first, is like DANDY is the Porsche master!

Well about handling and physics I feel this 997 GT3 as the Corvette Z06R which is based on.

This car gives no sensation the engine is on the back. I have a turn, I brake, I turn, I press full throttle for all the time and the car just go understeer and shouldn't. Looking at this video, everytime the guy try to open gas too early, the car give a kick on the back, and he need to quickly correct the direction with steering wheel.

I have another video in which the car seems to be nervous on back if the driver do errors, but here too, no understeer at all and the driver can accelerate just slowly out of the turns.

[DANDY]

No sense in keeping it penned up if I want good feedback...so link updated updated with the changes from above, and a really crappy sound.

I wasted a bunch of time playing with useless sound bites. I have much better source sounds than this, I was really just experimenting and goofing around. This is what you get with WIPs

Understeer complaint

How about now? It probably still understeers a little, but less than before. It is a different car in many ways than the road car in the video.
The race car is based on the GT3 RS, and shod with 310 tires rear, 265 front, with adjustments made for contact patch. It handled brilliantly with 325s all round like the vette, but it's not correct for this car.
The race gears and engine also put the power down at speed, offering little power at lower speeds, especially compared to the V8 vette.
The 997 platform is very advanced; with this setup -- extra wide grippy slicks and decent downforce -- I don't expect it to throw the rear violently unless making a grave mistake.



Still to play with:
Dampers/Friction: Probably need it softer, but I'm having lots of fun two-wheeling over high curbs.
Downforce: Probably reducing the rear, those 310's are sticking too well.
Gears: I have 3 sets: Stock Cup S, and Quaife box with 3.7 and 4.125 differentials -- currently running the latter.
There's one wacky setting in there for kicks and giggles now, I found it noticeable but not intrusive. Let's call it 'chassis and component flex' - these things aren't built of concrete

[DonaemouS]

How about now? It probably still understeers a little, but less than before. It is a different car in many ways than the road car in the video.
The race car is based on the GT3 RS, and shod with 310 tires rear, 265 front, with adjustments made for contact patch. It handled brilliantly with 325s all round like the vette, but it's not correct for this car.
...
-- I don't expect it to throw the rear violently unless making a grave mistake.

I posted a video. You write about grave mistake. I tried for an entire lap to doing "grave mistakes". At time 0:13, you see the first one, full throttle in the middle of the turn. The tires are completely turned to left, and I just pressing full throttle. The cars went straight.

At time 0:21, I'm trying to kick the rear wheels. I accelerate, turn, accelerate turn. If you do a thing like that with the Fenzo, Zonda and other cars like these, you got a dozen of 360s. Impossible to kick rear tires, its like they are going on railways. On the entire finish line straight i continued to kick doing errors, turning, full throttle, turning, full throttle again and again, I also changed gear while turning and accelerating, zig zag, no way at all...

If this is the car behavior in the reality (you wrote is different from the one drove in my links), then she is perfect.

[DANDY]

Try the classic 911 line-killer: brake hard from high speed into a tight corner with no throttle. Full throttle on a R/R car should produce MORE grip.

Slow in, fast out
The trick is to turn that grip into turning, usually by easing off the gas until the nose is pointed down the road, then punching the throttle. With the weight towards the rear, the gas/brake dynamic changes, with throttle-induced oversteer being tougher to accomplish. Big drifts on these huge slicks should take some very deliberate action. That said, I'm still searching for that 'live' feel.

Add load sensitivity tweaks to the list -- it makes a car faster, but kills the personality. If I can get it running with the Z06R with less negative load sensitivity, I'll do it in a heartbeat.

[DANDY]

I'll have to watch this one closely later on today...

[DonaemouS]

i saw the video a couple of times, at minute 2:40, the driver is doing something interesting. He is showing the powerslide for this RS monster. As soon as he accelerate (I don't know if there was any ASR on), the rear tires slide to the opposite side of the turn (he is turning right, but his steering wheel is turned to left).

I supposing is oversteering and, in this video too, the car kicks on the back, look when he was done the turn at steering; before get it straight, he got a new kick on the back

[slowDan]

"Just flick! ...and enjoy"

Tiff is awesome.

[DANDY]

Took the wadding out of its rear

Less negative load sensitivity on the rear wheels, lets the tires do their job while letting the car do its thing.
Let some tension off the suspension as well.

Lap times seem to reflect these

Sound is improved somewhat, could be much better.

[DonaemouS]

yes, the lap is aligned to real one. I saw you tweaked suspensions to be softer, also.

well, now is a bit tricky to handle, and rear wheels "sometimes" get kicked with full throttle.

[Toad]

Thx for letting us give feedback on this one.

First release I thought did not turn in very well, it was pushing quite hard as you mentioned, I also thought the steering was being affected by the suspension, as the steering feel was altered by what felt like weight transfer. Kind of thing you would expect in a flexy frame and not a car like this. I would have no clue how to cure that. The fact that you are developing in semi-public and including us here will help us all gain more understanding of what the terms mean.

I missed the second release completely and tried the third release just now.

Much much improvement here, I find it turns in better, especially under hard braking
and pops in to both fast and slow turns with just a quick brake release to kick out and point the car on entry. Not unlike the e90. Only place I really felt the rear kick out with acceleration was the exit to club just past the plane when shifting up. Quite nice actually.

Not much to complain about now, I could and would drive it now over the Corvette as it is. Though it would be nice to see some more adjustments just to see what is too much of this and not enough that. Maybe test it a little looser than it is now

After some laps I watched my replay and it seemed that the car was behaving very much like the ones in the videos. With quite a bit of sawing the steering wheel back and forth mid turn and on exits. Also like the little braking twitches. Much as in the e90 and just as quick, but without the unhappy endings so far.

[leoantix]

finally got a some laps done at silverstone. at first glance it felt like driving a brick, no offense. yet, after a few laps i started to see where the gem lies in this car. a lot of steady braking and easy entries like you mentioned. i feel the throttle could give a little more feedback to the rear end, i find it hard to loose control out of the corners even when im too premature on the gas or late on the turn with the wheel. with the power and torque she has, i would assume more of a beast with a wild tail with more oversteer. also, the steering, feels a bit weird, seems to snap a little bit back and forth on the momo. i find it hard to keep a smooth gentle long turn like the final one at silverstone. it keeps etching and correcting itself giving me a stepping effect on the long turns. as far as the slow and sharp turns, this setup seems to be quite able and feels natural when taking them. im not sure where a happy balance might lay. overall, i think this car will be a lot of fun when refined and body finished. once you get warm to her, she rewards you quite nicely. here are a few laps i laid at silver ... i still think i can easily drop 5 secs with more practice though

[slow]

nice update DANDY. this car is really starting to come to life. im in agreement with Leo in that a little more liveliness from the rear end under full throttle would be nice. very fun to throw this car around silver. i really enjoy all of the controlled sliding that is possible when pushing it to its limits. well done

[DANDY]

Dropped negative loadsensitivity another notch in the back, haven't tried it yet. Be sure to take a run on Black Forest to compare with Silverstone.

Initial UV mapping done to a borrowed texture, some adjustments still required.

[Toad]

Dropped negative loadsensitivity another notch in the back, haven't tried it yet. Be sure to take a run on Black Forest to compare with Silverstone.

So the last two incarnation's you lowered the loadsensitivity. I don't know what that is. Though I did notice that the rear is now slipping all over the place. And while it's really fun to slide it on Silverstone it's just slowing the car down.
I went back to the previous version (3?) and was able to get within a second of your time on Silverstone. 1:55.

Took a few laps with the new version on Black Forest; not a pleasant experience. Constantly out of shape going into and out of most turns. Not liking the road cambers much either. The older version for me again is better composed. I was a good 5 secs a lap quicker with it. I think my best time was a 1:25 something with the older car. The 3 and 4 versions are both a handful going into that first turn complex on Black Forest, with the 3 coping better. Maybe just a tad stiffer suspension on that one, or just leave it alone.

Liking this car very much so far.

[DANDY]

Load sensitivity is a wheel setting that adjusts its sensitivity to weight transfer. I'm working in negative values, (i.e. less sensitive to weight transfer) so when I lower negative sensitivity in the rear, as has been the case with the two most recent changes, I'm actually making it more sensitive. The change from last version to present was from -0.04 to -0.03. To keep everyone happy, I'll stick it to -0.35 and work around it. The vette has much less sensitivity all around, but the 997 has a shorter wheelbase and needs a little movement to get the rear/rear advantage going for it.
I'm in agreement with all opinions on versions so far, though I've come to control each very well after a few laps. With the race tires on, powering the tail out could simply be more difficult, as they would rather stick than kick. Combine that with more weight over the driving wheels and gearing that doesn't deliver power until you're already at speed, and power slides become the result of deliberate action rather than a matter of course.

I'll certainly consider doing a road version of the RS to compare as in the video, as a street setup would ramp up the fun over the fast.

Some of the difficulty through some corners is likely due to weaker front brakes. I'll move the balance forward, as I find I'm overdriving them into corners, and I probably have earlier braking points than most.

If it's still a pain over rougher roads, I'll take out the small amount of suspension stiffness I dialed back in.

While typing this, I put the changes into the car, and cranked up front negative loadsensitivity just for kicks. It may work like a cheat, it may not...

Here's tonight's drive (1.4MB)

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