Mid-Ohio

[Kenners]

This is a better place for this topic, I think..

The creators of the rFactor Mid-Ohio track have not given me permission to port & release to the public a version for Redline. However, they have graciously given me permission to work on it privately. With that in mind, I will be soliciting among my friends here on the LoL forums for some private testing and play. I can PM folks when I have a beta ready. Drop a reply here if you're interested.

Kenners

[Pax-raider]

I'd like to try out the updates.

I'm a bit confused though about the difference between refusal to allow you to port a version, but working on it "privately". Seems like you either can port it or you can't... ?

[Kenners]

I'd like to try out the updates.

I'm a bit confused though about the difference between refusal to allow you to port a version, but working on it "privately". Seems like you either can port it or you can't... ?

Here's a quote from his reply:

"if you want you can give that a try with the gmt sources for your private uses - but we please you to not release it in public."

So that's how I read it. I'l include a read me which states this is not in the public domain, do not share, etc.. Think I'm pushing it?

-K

[Pax-raider]

"if you want you can give that a try with the gmt sources for your private uses - but we please you to not release it in public."

Hmm, I think I see the distinction - you are saying the track will only be released to a select group of us rather than as a standard plug via Legacy. I guess that sounds OK, but at what point does it become effectively public, after you've given it to 10 friends, or 25, or 50?

[C14ru5]

There are two versions of Mid Ohio for rFactor - which one is it that you have permission to use in private?

One is by Virtua_LM and MonSum, and the other is by James Burroughs. The first one states that "Conversion or modification of any of this package's contents is strictly prohibited", but if you haven't explored the second version, I would recommend that you try.

at what point does it become effectively public, after you've given it to 10 friends, or 25, or 50?

I'm explaining this from Norwegian law, but most European laws should be similar:

It's not about numbers, it's about accessibility. So if a large group of people have gotten a password from Kenners in private to join a game where he is the host, it's still considered private. This would be valid as long as it's reasonable to believe that Kenners has granted each individual user access without distributing either the I.P. or the password publically, and without any extra help (i.e. no "middle men", messengers, or tools). The use of mailing lists is debatable, usually it becomes public once you send email outside the domain of your local mail server.

Did that explanation make it easier to understand the difference between private and public?

[Pax-raider]

Did that explanation make it easier to understand the difference between private and public?

Not really. I'm more interested in what the person intended by their request, rather than a legal definition. In other words, if it was me, I'd ask them "is it OK if I...". I think there is a near certainty than nobody would start a legal action against K if he did release a plug on Legacy; to me its more important to play nice. If we don't we run the risk of being black-balled by all other rFactor track-makers and be unable to port versions of other tracks in the future.

[Kenners]

There are two versions of Mid Ohio for rFactor - which one is it that you have permission to use in private?

One is by Virtua_LM and MonSum, and the other is by James Burroughs. The first one states that "Conversion or modification of any of this package's contents is strictly prohibited", but if you haven't explored the second version, I would recommend that you try.

I didn't see/wasn't aware of the other one; I'll have a go at that. MonSum is the person that I corresponded with, the Virtua_LM folks. Thanks. And, I don't want to jeopardize any relationships with any other person(s) that might be willing to allow a track to be ported.

Cheers,

Kenners

[C14ru5]

I didn't see/wasn't aware of the other one; I'll have a go at that. [...] I don't want to jeopardize any relationships with any other person(s) that might be willing to allow a track to be ported.

In that case, better make sure the second version is not a bootleg, perhaps by asking not only James Burroughs, but MonSum as well. My guess is that it is another version of the first one, allowed since it's distributed as rFactor-only. Still, let's keep our fingers crossed.

[leoantix]

this is good and interesting news ... after reading C14ru5's comment, i suggest just making the track available only via request

[Tomte]

Excellent work, Kenners. The track looks very polished, nice textures, lots of details. I like the light effects a lot.

My frame rate is quite bad though, worse than say Monaco. It's ok for time trial, but I'm not sure how it will be in MP (if this is ever going to happen).

The grass is quite bumpy, so one false move of the track with one wheel (with a car that doesn't like bumps), the the lap is ruined. I don't say this is bad, it seems to be a feature of several of your tracks.

[djpimley]

Very nice. That's a well outfitted pit lane.

A bit of GPU badness, as discussed in the Laguna Seca thread. I'm holding a respectable 60 fps on most of the track but around the finishing straight and the back straight it's down to 30 fps. I had a fly around and I don't see much transparency so perhaps it's just weight of detail - I have 8x FSAA enabled.

I did a few laps with the SR8 and I've also been testing at Watkins Glen. The SR8 can't hold the track for toffee on the sweeping turns on these tracks - gets past the apex and then on exit it spins off into the shrubbery. I've been playing with the car but I can't do anything to fix it. These corners all look banked and my guess is because Redline doesn't simulate centrifugal force, light cars just can't find any grip.

[Kenners]

Very nice. That's a well outfitted pit lane.

A bit of GPU badness, as discussed in the Laguna Seca thread. I'm holding a respectable 60 fps on most of the track but around the finishing straight and the back straight it's down to 30 fps. I had a fly around and I don't see much transparency so perhaps it's just weight of detail - I have 8x FSAA enabled.

I did a few laps with the SR8 and I've also been testing at Watkins Glen. The SR8 can't hold the track for toffee on the sweeping turns on these tracks - gets past the apex and then on exit it spins off into the shrubbery. I've been playing with the car but I can't do anything to fix it. These corners all look banked and my guess is because Redline doesn't simulate centrifugal force, light cars just can't find any grip.

I have no evidence for this belief, but I think if there was a way to set normals, it would help with banked corners.

I really like the way the track looks with all the skid marks and tar patches - but those are all added as a separate object with, of course, alpha enabled. The only other alpha in the whole thing are the flags and the treeline, and the portable light towers (3 of them) along the start segment. I've thought about what C did with his new track, to make the skid marks part of the road textures (and have more textures as part of the track). I think I'm going to lose those skid objects & see what it does for FPS.

-K

[djpimley]

I've thought about what C did with his new track, to make the skid marks part of the road textures

I think that's a good call. Works nicely on Rudskogen.

[Kenners]

I've thought about what C did with his new track, to make the skid marks part of the road textures

I think that's a good call. Works nicely on Rudskogen.

Removing those objects helps FPS some, but I didn't get "good" frame rates till I turned off the skid marks and the treeline. And at that, it still dropped into the 20s at the busiest parts of the track.

I'll have to do an inventory & see how many road textures I'd have to add to get what I want with the skid marks etc.

-K

[C14ru5]

Rudskogen is a bit unfair comparison, since it's a smaller track with much less detail. 12000 triangles in beta 1, I'm aiming for 15000. 900 triangles in materials with alpha blending enabled.

Out of curiosity, how many polygons are there in your Mid Ohio project? I suspect that's the biggest problem. Even your track marshals have more details than Redline's default driver!

[Kenners]

Rudskogen is a bit unfair comparison, since it's a smaller track with much less detail. 12000 triangles in beta 1, I'm aiming for 15000. 900 triangles in materials with alpha blending enabled.

Out of curiosity, how many polygons are there in your Mid Ohio project? I suspect that's the biggest problem. Even your track marshals have more details than Redline's default driver!

Heck, I dunno how many polys.. I mean, one portion of the track model (it's split into 5 pieces) is 5100 polys. I chopped tons of polys out as I reworked things, but it is excessive. One of the wall sections (the biggest one, in terms of polys) is over 11000 polys. I think I might have to work that, maybe delete the tops & outsides of the walls & just set MI to draw them 2 sided. Wow: all the pit goodies, NOT counting the tents and flags, weighs in at over 10k polys.

*sigh* - I may not have a truly creative bone in my body, and I do enjoy this porting process, but I've got to pay more attention to what I'm working with.

-K

[djpimley]

I may not have a truly creative bone in my body

Oh, I wouldn't say that. Perhaps you are not an artist but I have seen plenty of creativity in your lovely work on Brooklands and Watkins.

[alphonse]

The track has a lovely race-line, bringing you into some meditation of racing and then boom - and you are gone.
I love it, especially with the Atom. Have some problems to keep eg the Lotus Exige on track - but i love it.
Much work around the track - and fps around 20-30 if there are no other racers... Elsehow (guess what) even worse.

I dont get the idea of that silly copyright regulation but i dont really need to.

good work - ty - alf

[leoantix]

mmhmm its that good ... yet like others, getting some funky fps glitches around some parts of the track

[Kenners]

Just an update.. I've spent the last couple days deleting tens of thousands of polys, and performance is where it needs to be, I think, for MP. Unfortunately, I felt I had to delete all the pit goodies (the toolboxes, computers, sprinklers, trash cans, etc.) to get there. I also deleted all the tops & backs of the walls/guardrails, which doesn't affect appearance to a great degree.

I'm now kinda working on altering the track surface textures, to put the tar patches on them, so I can have as nice looking a surface as there is in the released beta, but without having to resort to transparency. I think I can go from one main road texture (ROADB) to maybe 3, and hopefully this won't kill performance.

After that, I may see about skid marks.. Or maybe not. We can just pretend that there were very heavy rains before the race, and all the rubber got washed off the road..

I'll post here so those who got the link a few days ago can use the same link to get the update when it's ready.

Cheers,

Kenners

[Kenners]

To those of you who received a PM from me with a link to this track, I've put an update there. The download link is the same.

If you've lost my PM, just PM me and I'll PM you.

Cheers,

Kenners

[Kenners]

To those who received a PM from me, use the same link & grab this version. I'm about done with it; If C wants to have a go at setting up the AI, I'd be thrilled.

I finally figured out how to get rid of those little gaps where the track sections meet. I sprinkled a few trees around. And I put some detail into the track textures. No skid marks, though.

Kenners

[C14ru5]

If C wants to have a go at setting up the AI, I'd be thrilled.

I'm engulfed in two-and-a-half other track projects at the moment, but I'll still have a quick look. If it's a quick fix, I'll send you an update in a PM.

Whatever you did to the track, it now runs much smoother than before, I'm getting 40 FPS at worst - previously it was in the twenties a lot of the time.

[Kenners]

If C wants to have a go at setting up the AI, I'd be thrilled.

I'm engulfed in two-and-a-half other track projects at the moment, but I'll still have a quick look. If it's a quick fix, I'll send you an update in a PM.

Whatever you did to the track, it now runs much smoother than before, I'm getting 40 FPS at worst - previously it was in the twenties a lot of the time.

No pressure.. I went around & kinda set some racing line points & the AI bounds, but I don't really have a good handle on adjusting AI speed.

-K

[C14ru5]

The AI line mainly impacts AI behavior, and not so much AI lap times. For that, one needs to make adjustments to the speedModifier value.

This is basically the method that I followed for Laguna and Silverstone:
-Remove all racing line markers using the menu command in Track Editor
-Make sure that minTrack and maxTrack in the roadtypes are 1-2m inside of the drivable track
-Tedious step: Convert the .road to .plist, find the (key)speedModifier(/key)(integer)0.0(/integer) text snippet and paste it into (each and every?) road segment. I learned that from SlowDan during his work on Dantona.
-Add new racing line markers inside Track Editor, usually leaving more than 8 segments between each point in order for the AI to judge its speed properly. Also, I normally don't drag the racingLine sliders to the extreme values, but instead settle for the area 50% left to 50% right. That makes the cars look more alive.
-Again in the .plist format: Search and replace the speedModifier value, 0.3-0.4 seems to be a golden value, depending on the amount of banking on the track.

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