TCC Balancing - The second

[Tomte]

I need to learn to write less, something like: here, eat this!

Nobody took it on, so I had to do it. I'm talking about the necessity to rebalance the TCC class.

At the moment we are talking about 4 cars, the RX-8, 190, Seat and the Volvo.

Don went ahead and changed the brake balance on the Volvo, which was in my eyes the only real weakness of this car. I entered the factory stats of the STCC race car, giving it less power at higher rpm. The values in the currently released version were not entirely correct. Don kindly gave me permission to add the car to the test suite.

The Mazda already saw some beta versions floating around, where Dandy and I tried to come up with an engine and transmission setup that was more in line with the competition. Unfortunately, Dandy's last version (road car engine specs, 5 gears) got forgotten after I released the last updates to the 190 and the Seat last October.

Changes to the RX-8:

• Power: 184 kW @ 9000 rpm (was 224 @ 9500)
  
• Torque: 216 Nm @ 5500 rpm (was 219 @ 7000)
  
• Gearbox: 6-1=5, i.e. road car box with locked out 6th gear (was custom 6 gear)
  
• Final Drive Ratio: 4.444 from the 2008 road car (was 3.769 according to 6 gear TCC regulations)
  
• Rev limit: 9000 rpm according to TCC regulations (was 9350)
  
• Weight: 1140 kg (was 1170 kg)

I don't know the car well enough to say if the handling has changes significantly or if it has become just too easy.

Mercedes 190:

• increased inertia: should wobble less
  
• Rev limit: 8500 rpm (was 8550)
  
• Gearbox: shorter gears 4, 5 and 6: should make it slower at the top, without actually getting there much quicker

Seat Leon:

• Weight: 1170 kg according to WTCC spec (was 1150 kg), inertia adjusted
  
• Weight Distribution: 60/40 (was 53/47 according to Redline Wiki)
  
• Frontal Air Resistance: 1.04 (was 0.91)
  
• Rev limit: 8500 rpm (was 8550)
  
• Gearbox: shorter gears 4, 5 and 6: adjustments were necessary after raising the Frontal Air Resistance
  
• Brake adjustments were necessary after the CoG was moved

Volvo STCC:

• Power: 205 kW @ 8700 rpm (was 216 @ 8650 rpm)
  
• Torque: 230 Nm @ 8100 rpm (was 235 Nm @ 7000 rpm)
  
• Rev limit: 8750 rpm (was 8900 rpm)
  
• Brakes: rebalanced

You can find the 4 .car files here:
TCC_Test.zip

I took the liberty to name the folder '!!_TCC_Test' to place it on top of your list of plugins, for easy removal...
Please note that the included Seat beta has the same file name as the last version I uploaded, but does not physically (or datally?) replace the file. I guess you need to remove the old 1.4 beta first.

Feedback please, even if you think it is a waste of time.

[Kenners]

The Seat is the car I like the best; this altered version is, I think, easier to drive. When you let off the throttle as you steer into a corner, it isn't as likely to want to oversteer. It feels more balanced. It certainly feels slower under acceleration, though. I don't seem to reach quite as high a speed on long straights as with the "current" release version.

edit - the volvo gives me roughly equal times to the Seat, even though it is more twitchy; the brakes can throw it off line, and it is willing to oversteer more. With practice, I expect I'd be faster with it than with the Seat.

Kenners

[DonaemouS]

After downloaded and tryed the Volvo - The Game, I now have the new gearbox ratios too.

I sent the new set to Tomte for testing...

[Tomte]

After we will have successfully got the RX-8, the Seat and the 190 into line we will need to concentrate on that Volvo, which will be the next ringer har har har.

I have a question to the eternal authorities: Don send me the gear ratios used on the S60 from the Volvo game, which are inconsistent with the Xtrac gear ratios we find here on the Wikispaces page. These are not the road car ratios either, just something that is apparently used in STCC. It looks like they use a shorter first and second gear, more like a road car.
If we would apply these, it would be against the '5speed road car or 6speed Xtrac' rule we have in the TCC class.
We could also simply adjust the gear ratios we have to accomodate the now much more peaky power delivery.

What will it be?

[DonaemouS]

Don send me the gear ratios used on the S60 from the Volvo game, which are inconsistent with the Xtrac gear ratios we find here on the Wikispaces page. These are not the road car ratios either, just something that is apparently used in STCC. It looks like they use a shorter first and second gear, more like a road car.

And if this is true, we can continue to search around finding every time different values and informations.

My idea is that we need to have a supervisor. Just someone that will decide which maybe the specs for the "incoming" tournament. Waiting for Alphonse thread discussing the new rules plot, we also try to discuss what will be change for the tournament.

[Tomte]

The Seat is the car I like the best; this altered version is, I think, easier to drive. When you let off the throttle as you steer into a corner, it isn't as likely to want to oversteer. It feels more balanced.

In other words I ruined it.

Now, I need a benchmark car. With the Volvo being out of the equation cause it is changing, there's only the Vauxhall left. The problem is that I cannot drive it, so we need someone who can drive all cars reasonably well to tell us if the cars are still balanced. C.P. Frost? slowDan? Pleeeze!

[DonaemouS]

Now, I need a benchmark car. With the Volvo being out of the equation cause it is changing, there's only the Vauxhall left.

emmh

from what i read yesterday online, sD would prepare an update for the Vauxhall as well

[alphonse]

Thanks for the topic, all work and words.

We are planning a TCC championship indeed - need to bring it up but i am really short of time right now - too many deadlines in front of my nose...

The Championship will have really close constraints to allow cars to be in. There will most probably be a car-performance-committee which will allow some cars when they are final.
The problem is - as everything changes right now - we need a reference car to base all decisions upon. Cant change all variables at once - wont work.

Is any car ready to be a reference! This also means end of development on physics... For me the Vaux, Volvo or Seat (the released one) are possible to be reference cars - and all others have to adjust cars or wont be in the tournament...

what do you think?

We will post much more on the TCC tournament when i get some time and muse to do so, hopefully tomorrow.

alf

[slowDan]

We are planning a TCC championship indeed - need to bring it up but i am really short of time right now - too many deadlines in front of my nose...

Awesome!

Is any car ready to be a reference! This also means end of development on physics... For me the Vaux, Volvo or Seat (the released one) are possible to be reference cars

Like Don says I was considering making a gearing change to the Vectra. Mostly because it seems to get blown away on the high speed tracks (5th and 6th gear acceleration). I'm not really planning anything too major apart from that though, perhaps a brake balance tweak?

I need to find some time and do some comparisons to see how everything stacks up. I'll leave it alone for now though if its helps.

[Tomte]

If you want to make the Vectra a little quicker, I would not change the gearing but just lower the FrontalAirResistance a bit. The car has more than enough power to overtake the rest of the field. Changing the gear ratios will very likely result in a different braking behaviour without making the car any faster.

This would be a quick change, so if you could do just that we can still use the Vauxhall as a referrer (which I would like very much, being the original TCC car and all!).

The Mercedes, Seat and hopefully the Mazda will all get slower compared to the current releases, as can already be seen with the beta versions.

Don seems to work on an overhaul of the Volvo, not to make it faster but to have a different handling characteristic.

I know that acceleration tests only give 1/10th of the total picture, still I prepared a little google spreadsheet to compare the different TCC cars.
TCC acceleration comparison

[alphonse]

"Two souls alas! are dwelling in my breast"

On the one hand it would be nice to have the Vauxhall the reference car for all others. It would really satisfy me.
On the other hand newly released - rereleased / modified cars win on popularity. I dont want a tournament of TCC and no one (but slow and slowDan ) drives the reference car anymore. I leave it up to you to do changes to it, although i kindly ask you to let us know if you are going to modify it or not so we can advance a step. Please think about it twice, as it might be considered a plugin-lock soon... :geeeks:
all in the name of fun of course


And: i really love tomtes google-spreadsheets
good work,
alf

[slowDan]

And: i really love tomtes google-spreadsheets

The computing brain strikes again!

Seeing the differences makes it clearer sometimes. Maybe you are right about the Vectra air resistance, its certainly 5th and 6th where it loses out most. Its only high speed tracks where its losing out and not by too much either. I'll get some testing in over the weekend and make a decision.

[Pax-raider]

It might be a good idea to test the new versions sooner rather than later in MP. One or two people driving their own tests in Time Trial is useful but may not truly reflect how the cars are in the "real" world.

And, FWIW, I consider myself a failed convert from the Vectra...

[Tomte]

I posted my work in progess so that they are tested in MP. I can only do so much on my own, I need you feedback. So get to it!
Don asked me not to release another beta for the Volvo, as he took that one over to give it a more involving handling. So just imagine the Volvo beta with a better brake balance and maybe a second or so quicker.

There are some reference times available for Thruxton and Donington on the BTCC website, but actually I advice against trying to match the lap times. It is difficult enough to make the cars equally fast, not to talk about finding 2 seconds a lap out of thin air.

On another note: should we make thomm aware of this tread/web board? He might change his mind and slow down the 156. I don't know what our generous hosts think about that.

[Pax-raider]

On another note: should we make thomm aware of this tread/web board? He might change his mind and slow down the 156. I don't know what our generous hosts think about that.

Alternatively, move this discussion to the ASW board. I don't think this particular discussion needs to be done behind (somewhat) closed doors anyway...

[Tomte]

Alternatively, move this discussion to the ASW board. I don't think this particular discussion needs to be done behind (somewhat) closed doors anyway...

We have moved: ASW Web Board
Please continue the discussion in the public

[DonaemouS]

Volvo S60 STCC Update.

As first, I decided add to this car the new "formula" to calculate the wheel.friction. This sensibly reduced the top speed, that was compensate with a lower front air resistance. Changing the suspension setup, I was able to achieve a new handle behavior, that will provide a new driving experience to the Volvo drivers.

The aim was kill the understeer, allowing better performance through corners, to keep the pace of competitors like Mercedes or the Seat. The tracks of choice are Silverstone and Thruxton, where, today, the Mercedes is a roughly 2 seconds avg faster at lap.

The build on which i working, will include the brake fixes and the new gearbox. It was decided to not add the Volvo S60 STCC gearbox included in the Volvo - The Game. I hope to release the new build later today.

here are some of the changes i made:

Code:

frontAirResistance 0.779

engineInertia 0.210
engineBaseFriction 22
engineRPMFriction 0.038

supsensionFriction 2100
damperStrength 27000
frontSwayBar 19500
rearSwayBar 23500

The list include also the wheels.friction and I actually removed the wheels.loadSensitivity (was -0.05) on the rear wheels, to decrease the weight load on those wheels, while braking and turning.

[DonaemouS]

Early this morning, in the search of a good tweaking in Volvo S60 with TCC rules, I discovered something would be wrong in the kind of tires we are going to use.

Both the FIA WTCC Regulations and the sD TCC rules, states about "The complete wheel must fit in a box with a diameter of 610mm and thickness of 250mm".

Looking at Yokohama site, the unique and official provider in tires, they don't produce they size "we" are going to use (245mm), but it is suggested to use the 230/610R17 (607x240mm).

Even the smaller 240/640R17 is larger then what regulations impose (640x253mm). I think we should reduce the wheels size to meet the FIA rules, as we accurately doing with engine specs, masses, cog and so on, and we need to find an agreement on the RRC value to be used in the wheel.friction calculation.

[C14ru5]

After downloaded and tryed the Volvo - The Game, I now have the new gearbox ratios too.

Straying off topic from this old post: I just tried this game, and my expectations were shattered. SimBin have an even better physics engine than ISI (rFactor), but why ruin that base with bad artwork? I mean, the classic Volvo 240 is modeled with completely wrong proportions, like they didn't receive any blueprints from Volvo and instead just had to model off some perspective-distorted pictures. On a licensed game, that's just unfathomable, especially since the developers are a well-merited Swedish company making a game honoring their nation's iconic race cars.

The Volvo 850 on the other hand is graphically correct and beautiful, but its trademark engine sound is not there, just some generic 4-cylinder sound (probably the Volvo B23) instead of the lovely dual-note straight 5. Big disappointment.

Sorry about the OT rant, I just needed to vent off some steam.

[DANDY]

SimBin have an even better physics engine than ISI (rFactor)

SimBin games use the ISI engine (gMotor-2). Shame about the artwork. Haven't tried the equivalent free BMW and Ferrari games, hopefully they're better.

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